Want a 'fun' weighted board...

[Kaneda]

All UK based, unfortunately.
Nothing against the UK, but will have to fiddle with power adapters, plus the ’hidden’ tax that may or may not be charged upon delivery (I know people who have ordered all kinds of stuff, like CDs, BluRays, etc, with UK based shops and had the unpleasant surprise of having to pay an extra charge to the delivery man because apparently, since Brexit, us Europeans and you Brits no longer get along

 

[happyrat1]

BTW

Before I ordered my Compact 2X it was on the Thomann website at a very competitive price until I saw that it was without Tax, add Tax and Europe will not be getting any business from me again due to the Tax and levy they add.

UK to Eu will no doubt be prohibitive but whorth asking the question if you are keen

Don't blame the EU for the taxes. They only tax their own imports. Blame Bad Brexit Boris for any taxes you guys levy now on imports.

Gary

 

[Biggles]

Don't blame the EU for the taxes. They only tax their own imports. Blame Bad Brexit Boris for any taxes you guys levy now on imports.

Gary

I blame Boris The Bad for everything.

And I blame the mind numbing stupid Brits who were dumb enough to vote for the Conservative Party to begin with.

Unless you live in the EU you cannot appreciate just what a bureaucratic nightmare of an organisation it is, with colossal overheads, red tape from the Earth to the Moon and back.

Don’t even get me started on the French.

 

[Kaneda]

Right. The MX88 will be back in stock in about a week.
Been thinking and I'm just going to start off with the MX, and try my hand at the FM Essentials and Cubasis. I can always upgrade to a proper DAW like Logic or Ableton and and add a controller like a Keylab or a Launchkey later on as I go along.

However, while I was waiting, I've also been looking at the MODX8, about 50% more expensive than the MX88 but probably a lot more bang for the buck. There's a bigger learning curve, but I can also start with Cubasis and some other apps, and move on to something more serious later on, if and when I feel ready.
That FM Essentials app for the MX is very cool but everyhing that's in the app is also in the MODX. So, perhaps, once the novelty wears off, I might wish I'd gotten something a bit more advanced in the first place...

Both boards have rave reviews although the MX88 beats the MODX8. Where the MX88 has been regarded as a very sturdy board and quality board for the price, there seem to be some quality issues cropping up here and there as far as the MODX goes, and not just the 88 key version : keys that become loose after a relatively short while and 'uneven' build quality for the MODX6 and 7, and a noisy keybed for the MODX8, which is hard to believe as the MX88 has the same GHS action and I haven't read any comments about noise.

Anyone here has either the MX88 or MODX8 (or perhaps even both) that can give me some feedback ?
Thanks !

 

[Kaneda]

Well, getting anxious to order my MODX8. Projected availiability is within 2 to 5 days from Thomann. Still, I’m not too confident as the MX88 went from 1 week, to 2 weeks, to 3 to 4 weeks, back to 1 week again, and jumped back to 2 weeks yesterday...
MODX8 is still 2 to 5 days away, fingers crossed.

I think that, since the MODX has a built-in step seqeuncer now since the last update, Cubasis 3 on the iPad will complement that perfectly as a linear sequencer. Can’t wait, really.

 

[Kaneda]

There have been some reports of the MODX8 having a noisy, almost clacky keybed, on Youtube and the web in general.
Which was kind of doubtful since there are no reports of other Yamaha models with the GHS keybed, like the MX88 or P125, having that problem, or at least not as widespread (although there have been reports of GHS having long term problems in general).
What's more, I got confirmation of this from someone who has a Youtube channel with lots of MODX8 videos. So, in other words, the MODX8 is out.
And to be honest, with me having had all this time to do some more research (since neither the MODX8 or MX88 were in stock until now), I've kind of moved more towards doing stuff with a controller and virtual instruments on a computer.
Either that, or it's back to the Korg Kross 2 88, which I had been considering again, and which I know has a quality feeling keybed.
Still, seeing I'm looking for something fun and to mess around with, i don't think the Kross 2 is all that much 'fun' really, when I think back on it.
Another board with internal sounds is also going to add to the overall cost and it might not be the itdeal solution for me, as my reputation for buying and returning several boards, precedes me. Perhaps I should conclude that this type of board (Roland FA, MODX, Kross, etc.) is not the types of board I'm looking for.

So, in comes computer and VSTs. And I'm trying to get the best bang for the buck, this time.
I've got a Macbook, a 27 inch iMac, and I also have an older desktop PC gathering dust, but still a very capable machine.
Having tried several DAWs in demo mode, I've decided that the Macbook Pro screen, or my iPad Pro for that matter, have too small a screen to meet my needs.
That leaves the iMac, or perhaps that PC...
Not going to buy an expensive studio desk, but I'm rather investigating an 'Ikea hack'. And to be honest, I'm already having fun combining all kinds of different stuff.
Now, I have my iMac on my regular office desk, and would plcace the new desk and controller next to it, in an L-shape.
I would most certainly buy a new monitor for the new desk, 24 or 27 inch, not too expensive, around 200 euro. I could hook that up to my iMac, as a second display. But, since my iMac only has a 512 GB internal SSD, which has already been divided up with a second Windows partition (need it for work as well as Mac OS), which doesn't leave me with lots of storage space, and I've already got two external drives for backup purposes and yet another version of Mac OS, which I also need for work.

So, in all, I'd have to buy yet another external SSD, and a USB hub, etc for my musical hobby. And then I thought about that PC I built six years ago, still very capable by today's standards : quad core i5, 16gb of RAM, a 256GB SSD + 2Tb HDD, a powerful graphics card capable of driving a large display, plenty of upgrade options (can be maxed out with 32GB RAM, plenty of bays left for all kinds of potential accessories), etc.
Also, every DAW, apart from Garageband and Logic, is available for Windows 10 and from what I've seen, that software runs just as well on Windows as on Mac. I've only got some doubt about MIDI implementation, for which I started another thread, but I guess i should be alright. In any case, it won't cost me anything, and should Windows go haywire, I can always use any bought DAW licences on my Mac afterwards and buy an external SSD afterwards. So nothing to loose, really.
Plus, experimenting is half the fun. And there are lots of free VSTs to start with, Cakewalk seems like something to try out, and all the rest of it.

I've also managed to free up some more space and thus, I am free in choosing 'longer' boards.
Funny, too, how many 'faults' you discover when really digging deep as one is researching the ins and outs of different controllers.
Native Instruments, for example, had caught my eye a long time ago. A S88 MK2, combined with a Maschine Mikro, seemed like a magnificent option. Plenty of included software and instruments to get started with and keep one busy for a long time.

But then you discover little things, such as Komplete Kontrol software instruments with non-resizable Windows, resulting in almost unreadable text for lost of pluging, even on a big display : I've downloaded everything I could from Native Instruments to try it out. And it's true.
Considering what the combination of S88 +Maschine costs, that's simply unforgivable, and I'm not even mentioning the price of their instrument collection. Arturia, looks good as well, software a bit cheaper, but the window resizing seems to suffer, too. i mean, it's 2021, what are they playing at ? No arpeggiator function on the board, but I guess that can be done in software.
Both have a Fatar TP100 keybed, same as the Studiologic SL Studio, which is A LOT cheaper.
There's also the new M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro, but apparently, judging from the comments on different forums, it seems to suffer from considerable teething problems. And I've also got my doubts about the overall quality of M-Audio boards.

With my intended setup, there's no room for two tiers, so it has to be 88 keys, and fully weighted (not necessarily graded). And I would like faders, knobs and pads as well. The Hammer Pro has all that, but as stated, not really reliable.
The ideal board would be an 88 key Novation SL MK3, but sadly, that doesn't exist (yet, there are rumours that is a possibility in the future).
I guess my best option would be a 'bare' board and add controllers and pads externally, which lead me to a possibly rather nice combo, and very affodable to boot : a Studiologic SL88 Studio, with a SL Mixface, and I found the Presonus Atom (SQ) for pads. Since I'm eyeing Ableton as my DAW, the Presonus would be ideal as it apparently works perfectly with both Studio One and Ableton Live (as does the SL88 Studio and Mixface combo). And not counting the cost of the DAW and VSTs I might want, all this would set me back less than 1000 euros.

Ultimately, though, I'm still a novice as far as MIDI is concerned, so I'm not 100% sure if all this is going to work well together.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Biggles]

Advice is easy.

Stop faffing about and buy a Korg D1.

You like the action, you say you like the sounds it produces.

It has the connectivity, no onboard speakers to add bulk and functions that are not needed.

When you want sliders and controls add a Korg Nano Control unit.

 

[Kaneda]

I have been considering that D1 quite a few times. Combined with Nanokey Studio and NanoKontrol Studio, it's a pretty nice package.
But I might miss having pitch/bend and modulation controls. Or can that be added externally as well ?

Also, the D1 only has 5-pin MIDI, so I'd need something like a Roland UM-One Mk2 MIDI to USB adapter. So another adapter in the mix and perhaps more possibility of experiencing some kind of lag ?
And last but not least, I have read comments on pianoworld forums about the D1's velocity curves being way off, when used as a MIDI controller. So, once again, a blemish on an otherwise beautiful board with a wonderful action.

Actually, the Studiologic SL88 Studio is praised everywhere as a controller. Action seems to be quieter than the SL88 Grand with the TP40, and overall, the TP100 is better suited for general type of playing and not just piano, something it has in common with Korg's RH3.

 

[anotherscott]

But then you discover little things, such as Komplete Kontrol software instruments with non-resizable Windows, resulting in almost unreadable text for lost of pluging, even on a big display : I've downloaded everything I could from Native Instruments to try it out. And it's true.
Considering what the combination of S88 +Maschine costs, that's simply unforgivable, and I'm not even mentioning the price of their instrument collection. Arturia, looks good as well, software a bit cheaper, but the window resizing seems to suffer, too.

Have you tried downloading this stuff for Mac? I'd ve curious to know if the problem exists, or to the same extent. Mac has generally handled window/font re-sizing better than Windows. But if a developer did not create a "native" Mac app but rather used a utility to essentially "convert" their PC software, you may lose some of that advantage. (One big clue that that is what they did is if there are drop down menus at the top of the app's window, in addition to the ones at the top of the screen.)

it has to be 88 keys, and fully weighted (not necessarily graded). And I would like faders, knobs and pads as well. The Hammer Pro has all that, but as stated, not really reliable.

Can you get the Viscount Physis K4/K4EX where you are? It's apparently being phased out, but it might do exactly what you want. (The EX is the same thing, with an expansion card that gives it built-in sounds.)

I have been considering that D1 quite a few times. Combined with Nanokey Studio and NanoKontrol Studio, it's a pretty nice package.
But I might miss having pitch/bend and modulation controls. Or can that be added externally as well ?

Also, the D1 only has 5-pin MIDI, so I'd need something like a Roland UM-One Mk2 MIDI to USB adapter. So another adapter in the mix and perhaps more possibility of experiencing some kind of lag ?
And last but not least, I have read comments on pianoworld forums about the D1's velocity curves being way off, when used as a MIDI controller. S

I have not seen any device to easily add real pitch/mod wheels since the old Yamaha MCS2.

OTOH, 5-pin MIDI to USB adapters are simple to add. No lag issues, and reliable.

Once you're connected to a computer anyway, there are computer apps to alter the velocity. Velocity curve issues are therefore typically only a concern when using a board to control non-computer sound sources.

As a D1 alternative (besides the Viscount possibility), I'd look at Casio PX-560 or PX5S. They have pitch/mod wheels, they have MIDI and USB connectors. PX5S is teh stronger of the two as a MIDI controller (6 sliders, 4 knobs, on-board buttons that you can program to call up computer-based sound setups over MIDI... though it lacks an expression pedal so you'd want to a pedal accessory like the ones from Audiofront). PX560 doesn't have all the MIDI stuff , in that respect it's closer to the D1, but better (as I said, it has the pitch/mod wheels and USB missing from the D1, and it also supports the expression pedal that the D1 and PX5S lack). The main thing that makes me think about the possibility of a PX560 over a PX5S is that, when and if you may want to use it by itself, I think it has more of the "fun factor" that you found missing in the Kross and I think you may find missing in the PX5S as well. So I'd say, of the Casios, choose PX5s as an alternative for your "soundless controller" route (even though it does have sounds, and some pretty nice ones), but maybe PX560 if you're torn about also wanting it to have some fun stand-alone capabilities (though you'd probably be back to adding something like a Korg Nano-something, which you could likely avoid with the PX5S or Viscount).

PX5S vs. PX560 is well described at https://casiomusicgear.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/the-definitive-px-5s-vs-px-560-comparison/

 

[Kaneda]

@anotherscott
As far as Komplete Kontrol goes, yes I have created an account on their website and downloaded Native Acces, Komplete Kontrol, Kontakt, ... you name it, everything that could be downloaded for free, on the Mac. You have to take the instruments windows 'as they come', no resizing, and when choosing the dropdown menu, the options for full screen or different size are even greyed out. It's something that's been requested heavily by users on the NI forum, but it's been years and NI don't seem to care.
For a brand with such a reputation, I think that's just lame.

That Physis you talk about is available and in stock at Thomann Germany, so yes I can get it, but I find it rather expensive for a controller (the price of the MODX8) and it might be a bit overkill for me on the MIDI side. Plus still no drumpads.
PX560 and PX-5S, well, I've said it already, clickety clack keybed, so definitely a no go. I know Fatar keybeds aren't the quietest in the world but those older Casio actions are really loud.

With the D1 missing pitch/bend and modulation controls, I could add a mini keyboard controller, like the Novation Launchey Mini or Arturia Minilab Mk2, which use touch strips for modulation and pitch/bend control, or the Akai MPK Mini Mk3, which has a joystick control.

But you're suggesting alternatives to the SL88 Studio. Do I have to understand that you're not really that fond of the Studiologic controllers ?

Edit : whether I'll be using my iMac or that PC, can I just plug my headphones/speakers (iLoud Micro Monitors) into the sound card on the PC, or would I benefit from an audio interface ? I've got a Behringer Q502 USB mixer laying around with a built-in USB audio interface. Beneficial to my situation in what way ? Merely a way to record audio or just better overall sound quality ?

 

[anotherscott]

But you're suggesting alternatives to the SL88 Studio. Do I have to understand that you're not really that fond of the Studiologic controllers ?

You already seemed familiar with them, I was just suggesting alternatives that could be better in one way or another. But if they do what you need, that's fine too. (I had forgotten you had already considered and dismissed the Casios.)

whether I'll be using my iMac or that PC, can I just plug my headphones/speakers (iLoud Micro Monitors) into the sound card on the PC, or would I benefit from an audio interface ?

I believe a PC would likely benefit from an interface, in terms of latency. I don't think there's really any benefit to an interface on a Mac, unless you're recording analog audio.

 

[Kaneda]

Silly really, how ridiculous stocks are these days. As we were talking about the D1 : no stock anywhere on mainland Europe, as far as I can tell (black model).
Projected availability : one retailer claims 15 to 16 weeks, Thomann says 2 weeks... but take tthat with a huge grain of salt. On the other hand, everything from Studiologic is in stock. Perhaps no demand

@Biggles
How’s the quality of your Numa 2x, by the wat ?

 

[anotherscott]

Silly really, how ridiculous stocks are these days. As we were talking about the D1 : no stock anywhere on mainland Europe, as far as I can tell (black model).
Projected availability : one retailer claims 15 to 16 weeks, Thomann says 2 weeks... but take tthat with a huge grain of salt. On the other hand, everything from Studiologic is in stock. Perhaps no demand

Or another possible facttor: All the stuff made in Asia was bottlenecked by the Suez event, while the stuff made in Italy remained available/accessible.

 

[Biggles]

@Biggles
How’s the quality of your Numa 2x, by the wat ?

No complaints.

The Fatar TP/9S action is semi weighted and feels vastly better than what I had on the Korgs.

Whilst it is semi weighted it does not feel that much different in the centre octave area compared to the action on the Yamaha P121 in the same octave.

It does have plenty of connectivity in USB host and MIDI IN/OUT.

Buttons and knobs feel robust but the knobs do not look it due to the orange coloured tops on some of them.

Sliders feel smooth and of a quality choice of component.

It is lightweight and compact in overall dimensions.

For its size the onboard amp and speakers are pretty good but I rarely use them.

Finally onboard sounds are very good to my ears plus there are some free updates that I have yet to install that sound provide even better piano sounds.

 

[Kaneda]

Or another possible facttor: All the stuff made in Asia was bottlenecked by the Suez event, while the stuff made in Italy remained available/accessible.

D1 was already hard to come by long before the Suez event, at least on mainland Europe. And since Brexit, I don't order from UK companies anymore because of potential hidden tax issues. No offence, @Biggles , love the UK, have family there, and used to visit 3 to 4 times a year before covid messed it all up...

As far as the Numa 2x is concerned, I was merely interested in the quality of Studiologic in general. The Numa 2x seems like a cool board and I think if it had fully weighted keys, even of the lightest kind, I might go for it, but semi-weighted isn't going to do it for piano playing, although many reviews say 'one could get away with it'.
I guess I'd miss that typical 'bounce back' hammer action, and although I'm not looking for something like the action I had in the MP11SE, I'd still like something more 'piano like'.

 

[Biggles]

You are only going to be satisfied with another Kawai and a MIDI controller sans keyboard, for all the buttons, knobs and sliders.

BTW, was not suggesting you get a 2X, just pointing out the quality level that Studiologic seem to have pitched their kit at.

 

[Kaneda]

Right, everything delivered a couple of days ago, hooked up, all working great... plus, it's fun !
And nope, it's not a MODX8, not a D1. That PC I was talking about has kicked the proverbial bucket so that's that.

I've rearranged my 'office/studio' space so I could put my iMac in the perfect spot, got a powered USB3 7-port hub to hook everything up, a K&M Omega stand with a tray on the second tier for my iPad and iLoud Micro Monitors.
On the first tier, well, I went for the Kross 2 88 MB. I didn't give it the credit it deserved the first time, and to be honest, I didn't dedicate the time it needed to actually appreciate it, but for the past few days, I've begun to dig deeper into the board and I'm really really liking it.
Going to use the iPad for displaying music scores etc. , and probably further down the line use the IDAM capabilities should I come across some apps that are not available on the Mac.
As for my DAW, going for Ableton Live. Haven't decided on which version yet, but my trial is still good for six weeks so plenty of time to decide. Have downloaded the Kross 2 Editor, doesn't work standalone yet in Mac OS 11, but the plugin works perfectly in Ableton : when I switched on the Kross, it was immediately recognized and set up, and it's a really great plugin. Only downside is that the window isn't resizeable but luckily, it's big enough and perfectly fine on the iMac's screen. Also downloaded trial versions of the Korg Collection plugins, and Gadget 2, which all work without a hitch (Korg collection plugins have been reworked in hi-res and are resizeable) ; they only work for 20 minutes per turn but that's enough to get an idea of how they work.
Gadget 2 has some incredible sounds and all sorts of things.
Last but not least, got a Nanokey Studio and NanoKontrol Studio, native integration with Korg Gadget, of course, but they also work perfectly with Ableton thanks to two scrips, and the Korg Kontrol Editor. And the USB MIDI/Audio interface in the Kross 2 works beautifully.

All in all, really excited about how it all works so well together ! I promise, this time, it's a keeper !

 

[anotherscott]

D1 was already hard to come by long before the Suez event, at least on mainland Europe.

There's also been a world-wide semiconductor chip shortage, which is affecting all sorts of things.

I promise, this time, it's a keeper !

LOL. You'll forgive my skepticism. ;-) But congrats! And you know, there's no "right" answer. As long as you have something, you have 90% of everything. Enjoy!

 

[Biggles]

Glad you are sorted.

The global chip shortage Scott refers to is screwing so much up at the moment, Range Rover production in Liverpool has ceased for a week as they are desperately short of semiconductor chips.

 

[Kaneda]

NanoKontrol Studio and Nanokey Studio weren't working out for me so sent them back with full refund. Got an Arturia Minilab MKII and a Behringer X-Touch One instead, much better setup. Took my Behringer Q502USB mixer out of the cupboard and using that as audio interface instead of the built-in one in the Kross 2, since I needed an XLR input for a Rode NTA1 mic.
As for my DAW, and as all of my trials are coming to an end, I've decided not to go for Ableton after all, or Logic. I bought Cubase Artist 11, the middle-ground, just a bit more expensive than Logic Pro, and I find Cubase easier to work with. Almost went for Presonus Studio One but found Steinberg's offering just that bit more interesting.
Comes with amazing plugins out of the box, plus I've already got quite a lot of free plugins from registering the MiniLab, and of course, the Kross 2 on its own and the great plugin it comes with. Size of the plugin windows is okay, actually, especially on a large iMac display, so it's not that much of a deal-breaker anymore.

Reason, FL Studio, Bitwig are not 'traditional' enough for me and I guess that's also the reason why I didn't go for Ableton in the end. Reaper, well, I think it's a piece of sh*te, really, interface and menus look ugly, especially the menus are vomit inducing, it crashed on me a couple of times and constantly choked on several plugins (which all of the other DAWS had absolutely no problem with). Not worth it for free, and I would certainly not pay €60 for it.

It's been a long search for me to finally get what I feel comfortable with but I believe this is it.