I own a yamaha psr e453 keyboard and it seems to have a problem with all keys: Keys produce sound only when the key being played starts almost from the initial position. What i mean is this: when i play the key from near the initial height and above, the key produce sound. When i play the key from below that height, the key doesn't produce any sound no matter how hard i press the key. This becomes a problem when i play a certain key quickly because there is no time to place the key, again near the initial position to produce sound. So when i play a key quickly some notes are produced and others not. So my question is: this is a feature of the keyboard or it is faulty? thank you for the time
Yamaha psr e453 not responding keys depending on starting point of pressing
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"Touch sensitive" keyboards don't actually detect how much pressure you're applying to the key-- unless they have "after-touch," which is used for something else (usually modulating the sound while you're holding down a key) and has nothing to do with determining how loud to play the note.
Instead, "touch sensitive" keyboards detect velocity, or how quickly you strike a key-- which usually corresponds more or less to the amount of force behind the keystroke, since playing a key "harder" or more forcefully usually results in striking it more quickly.
The way this works is that there are sensors in the keybed which detect when a key has gotten to a certain point while being depressed.
A keyboard that is not velocity sensitive has only one sensor per key, so they can detect only whether a key is depressed or not, hence the key always produces a note having a particular volume regardless of how forcefully/quickly you struck it.
Most(?) keyboards that are velocity sensitive have two sensors per key, one that detects when the key is only slightly depressed (or almost all of the way up), and another that detects when the key is fully(?) depressed. The keyboard compares the times when each sensor is triggered to determine how long it took for the key to go from one point to the other, then translates that time difference into a velocity and a corresponding volume.
Some keyboards-- especially digital pianos-- may have three sensors per key, with the additional sensor being partway between the other two. This lets the keyboard better detect when you strike a key, then quickly strike the key again without giving it time to return to its fully raised position. In other words, the first keystroke triggers all three sensors, but the second keystroke triggers only the lower two sensors because the key didn't have time to return to a point above the first sensor, if you see what I mean.
The PSR-E453 has only two sensors in the keybed, so if you repeat a keystroke before the key has had time to return to a point above the first sensor then the second keystroke won't trigger both sensors, hence the keyboard probably won't generate a sound for the second keystroke. Unfortunately, this is a common problem with keyboards that have unweighted synth-style keys, and even with keyboards that have semi-weighted piano-style keys if they have only two sensors per key.
Instead, "touch sensitive" keyboards detect velocity, or how quickly you strike a key-- which usually corresponds more or less to the amount of force behind the keystroke, since playing a key "harder" or more forcefully usually results in striking it more quickly.
The way this works is that there are sensors in the keybed which detect when a key has gotten to a certain point while being depressed.
A keyboard that is not velocity sensitive has only one sensor per key, so they can detect only whether a key is depressed or not, hence the key always produces a note having a particular volume regardless of how forcefully/quickly you struck it.
Most(?) keyboards that are velocity sensitive have two sensors per key, one that detects when the key is only slightly depressed (or almost all of the way up), and another that detects when the key is fully(?) depressed. The keyboard compares the times when each sensor is triggered to determine how long it took for the key to go from one point to the other, then translates that time difference into a velocity and a corresponding volume.
Some keyboards-- especially digital pianos-- may have three sensors per key, with the additional sensor being partway between the other two. This lets the keyboard better detect when you strike a key, then quickly strike the key again without giving it time to return to its fully raised position. In other words, the first keystroke triggers all three sensors, but the second keystroke triggers only the lower two sensors because the key didn't have time to return to a point above the first sensor, if you see what I mean.
The PSR-E453 has only two sensors in the keybed, so if you repeat a keystroke before the key has had time to return to a point above the first sensor then the second keystroke won't trigger both sensors, hence the keyboard probably won't generate a sound for the second keystroke. Unfortunately, this is a common problem with keyboards that have unweighted synth-style keys, and even with keyboards that have semi-weighted piano-style keys if they have only two sensors per key.
Welcome.
Have a look through the Manual, I think that you should find that there are settings you can change to give a different response
Have a look through the Manual, I think that you should find that there are settings you can change to give a different response
@SeaGtGruff
Thank you very much for the detailed answer, i just checked again the point of the height where there is no sound and it is around 80% of the initial position which for me it is just very strange because it is quite big
@Biggles
I have looked the manual and the only relevant setting: touch response has 4 presets soft, medium, hard, fixed and doesn't affect this problem but with the same stregth produce different velocities. I have also looked the attack setting which also doesn't affect this problem
Thank you very much for the detailed answer, i just checked again the point of the height where there is no sound and it is around 80% of the initial position which for me it is just very strange because it is quite big
@Biggles
I have looked the manual and the only relevant setting: touch response has 4 presets soft, medium, hard, fixed and doesn't affect this problem but with the same stregth produce different velocities. I have also looked the attack setting which also doesn't affect this problem
Is the keyboard a new purchase of yours, if it is then you may wish to consider returning it.
The e453 has been superseded by the e463 about 18 months ago and it is the top of the range in what is the starter PSR-E series
The e453 has been superseded by the e463 about 18 months ago and it is the top of the range in what is the starter PSR-E series
Unfortunately i have bought it more than 2 years and the warranty is 2 years. But it would be good if anyone here can confirm that the psr e453 or similar older or later models of yamaha have this problem also, so to be sure this problem exist generally and some time in the future when i will buy another keyboard i will definetely consider this parameter because it is unplayable with fast notes of the same key
Michael has quite a few Yamaha keyboards so he is far better placed than I to advise on your specific issue.
I have played quite a few of the E and S models and I am not a fan of any of them. I simply do not like the feel of any of the keyboards, the operating system is very user unfriendly on both ranges. Some if the features are OK but to me the output sound quality is not the best. Specifically S675 and S975 where equivalent Korgs and Rolands sound much better.
So if you do decide to buy a new keyboard do please test play as many as you can within your budget especially those by other manufacturers, I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
I have played quite a few of the E and S models and I am not a fan of any of them. I simply do not like the feel of any of the keyboards, the operating system is very user unfriendly on both ranges. Some if the features are OK but to me the output sound quality is not the best. Specifically S675 and S975 where equivalent Korgs and Rolands sound much better.
So if you do decide to buy a new keyboard do please test play as many as you can within your budget especially those by other manufacturers, I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
happyrat1
Destroyer of Eardrums!!!
I believe you are not grasping the difference between VELOCITY SENSITIVE and PRESSURE SENSITIVE keyboards.
Electronic keyboards advertised as TOUCH SENSITIVE are a marketing fabrication.
They are in fact built with keys that measure the interval between the top of a keystroke and the bottom of a keystroke.
There are two switches on every such key.
One measures the start of a pulse when a key is initially hit at the top of the stroke.
The pulse concludes at the bottom of the stroke.
The microprocessor in the instrument measures the time it takes for the key to travel from the top to the bottom.
It's not magic.
It cannot measure a partially depressed key no matter how you try.
The shorter the pulse the louder the note in whatever degrees or steps the board is capable of playing. Usually 3 levels of sensitivity plus an off mode where it always plays the loudest regardless of playing speed. My Kurzweil actually has 7 levels of velocity sensitivity or VELOCITY CURVES as the industry refers to them.
These are the laws of physics as they apply to electronic keyboards.
There is nothing wrong with your Yamaha. It is functioning as it was designed to operate.
Keys MUST be fully depressed within a reasonable interval as defined by the parameters of the operating system.
Gary
Electronic keyboards advertised as TOUCH SENSITIVE are a marketing fabrication.
They are in fact built with keys that measure the interval between the top of a keystroke and the bottom of a keystroke.
There are two switches on every such key.
One measures the start of a pulse when a key is initially hit at the top of the stroke.
The pulse concludes at the bottom of the stroke.
The microprocessor in the instrument measures the time it takes for the key to travel from the top to the bottom.
It's not magic.
It cannot measure a partially depressed key no matter how you try.
The shorter the pulse the louder the note in whatever degrees or steps the board is capable of playing. Usually 3 levels of sensitivity plus an off mode where it always plays the loudest regardless of playing speed. My Kurzweil actually has 7 levels of velocity sensitivity or VELOCITY CURVES as the industry refers to them.
These are the laws of physics as they apply to electronic keyboards.
There is nothing wrong with your Yamaha. It is functioning as it was designed to operate.
Keys MUST be fully depressed within a reasonable interval as defined by the parameters of the operating system.
Gary
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As I said, there are keyboards that have three sensors instead of just two. I believe they are usually digital pianos that have weighted piano-style keys, so if you want a keyboard that will be able to respond as you'd like, I would recommend looking at those types of keyboards and check their specs for any mention of a tri-sensor keybed or whatever they call it.
Note that just because I'm saying "digital piano" doesn't mean that it won't have other types of voices to choose from, as "digital piano" really implies that it has 88 weighted keys that have a piano-like feel and responsiveness, not that it's limited to piano sounds. Some digital pianos do have a more limited number of voices as compared to a "digital keyboard," but there are also digital pianos that have just as many different sounds as a digital keyboard.
Also, a tri-sensor keybed isn't essential, but it does help. It's a two-part problem. One part of the problem is that if the keybed has only two sensors per key, you can't play a key repeatedly without letting it fully return to its normal unpressed state each time, whereas a tri-sensor keybed should be able to let you play a key again without waiting for it to fully return. But the other part of the problem has to do with how quickly the keys can fully return to their normal unpressed state. Unweighted synth-style keys don't "bounce" the way weighted piano-style keys can. So if the keys can quickly bounce back up into place each time you strike them, you can repeatedly play them at a more rapid pace, even if the keybed has only two sensors per key.
Note that just because I'm saying "digital piano" doesn't mean that it won't have other types of voices to choose from, as "digital piano" really implies that it has 88 weighted keys that have a piano-like feel and responsiveness, not that it's limited to piano sounds. Some digital pianos do have a more limited number of voices as compared to a "digital keyboard," but there are also digital pianos that have just as many different sounds as a digital keyboard.
Also, a tri-sensor keybed isn't essential, but it does help. It's a two-part problem. One part of the problem is that if the keybed has only two sensors per key, you can't play a key repeatedly without letting it fully return to its normal unpressed state each time, whereas a tri-sensor keybed should be able to let you play a key again without waiting for it to fully return. But the other part of the problem has to do with how quickly the keys can fully return to their normal unpressed state. Unweighted synth-style keys don't "bounce" the way weighted piano-style keys can. So if the keys can quickly bounce back up into place each time you strike them, you can repeatedly play them at a more rapid pace, even if the keybed has only two sensors per key.
If you can do try to visit a Music Store and have a play of as many keyboards as you can, making a note of each one you play and the feel of the keybed.
If you are unhappy with your 453 and if just changing the settings does not work for you (which I doubt it will) then it is probably time to move on.
After all two years playing the 453 and your skill level must have improved considerably and a new keyboard will complement your skill level very nicely.
The problem being your 453 is an Arranger keyboard and the available range is a little limited.
Yamaha PSR S775 and S975
Korg PA 600, 700 and 1000
Possibly
Casio CTX 5000
Moving away from an Arranger to a synth/workstation opens up a lot more possibilities.
Check out
Korg Kross 2
Korg Krome
Roland Juno DS both 61 and 88 key versions
Roland FA
Yamaha DX
If you are unhappy with your 453 and if just changing the settings does not work for you (which I doubt it will) then it is probably time to move on.
After all two years playing the 453 and your skill level must have improved considerably and a new keyboard will complement your skill level very nicely.
The problem being your 453 is an Arranger keyboard and the available range is a little limited.
Yamaha PSR S775 and S975
Korg PA 600, 700 and 1000
Possibly
Casio CTX 5000
Moving away from an Arranger to a synth/workstation opens up a lot more possibilities.
Check out
Korg Kross 2
Korg Krome
Roland Juno DS both 61 and 88 key versions
Roland FA
Yamaha DX
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While I haven't tried those keyboards and therefore don't know how their key actions are, I can't help thinking that anything with synth-style keys isn't going to be sufficient for rapid repetition of keystrokes-- they just aren't designed for that kind of playing. But regardless of the style of keys or the number of keys, the important thing is to thoroughly test the contenders in a store, specifically focusing on the type of playing that's important to you-- whether that means rapidly repeating a chord, or playing high up on the keys (near the fulcrum point), or whatever it is that you feel your current keyboard isn't doing well.
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Picking up on what others have said, a key must be raised above a sensor in order to be able to retrigger. How high that point is will vary depending on the design of the keyboard, but what you're describing sounds normal. Adding a third sensor (which you'll find on many hammer action boards) is a common design that can address this... but even two-sensor boards can vary, depending on the exact placement of the sensors. The RH3 action on the Korg SV1 is a two-sensor board with a lower than typical trigger point, and is probably better at this than the three-sensor Casio Privia models. It's not simply a matter of two sensors vs. three.
All that said, it's possible that the best way for you to address this is... practice. Regardless of the placement of the sensor, with proper technique, on a non-hammer action, it is nearly impossible to find yourself with "no time to place the key, again near the initial position to produce sound." Have you practiced the technique of restriking a single key with a different finger? That technique permits you to repeat a key much more quickly than you could possibly do it with a single finger, while also helping assure that the key comes back to a sufficiently high starting point between strikes.
All that said, it's possible that the best way for you to address this is... practice. Regardless of the placement of the sensor, with proper technique, on a non-hammer action, it is nearly impossible to find yourself with "no time to place the key, again near the initial position to produce sound." Have you practiced the technique of restriking a single key with a different finger? That technique permits you to repeat a key much more quickly than you could possibly do it with a single finger, while also helping assure that the key comes back to a sufficiently high starting point between strikes.
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For many keyboards 'touch sensitive' really means velocity sensitive; some more expensive keyboards also measure force at least at bottom of travel. I once fancied the PSR-E453 as a possible 'top' board based on some of its signal processing features but after less than 5 minutes of playing one I discarded that idea: I have several Yamaha keyboards which I like a lot but the physical keyboard on this one is very disappointing. One thing you may find with keyboards with physically small / short keys is that there's not a lot of physical travel to encode and not a lot of space to fit in sensors. However, I've experienced this behavior on some big expensive organs with percussion and/or arpeggiation where it is triggered from a high physical contact, consequently, percussion is only triggered by an open key closing (or in some cases from all keys open); players exploit this: it's a feature not a bug! and good modern tone wheel emulators mimic this behavior.
The latest iteration of the Ops keyboard is the Yamaha PSR E463
$280
is the listed price at Sweetwater, which is not bad for a reasonable well made beginner keyboard with a good range of sounds and features.
That said all the Yamaha E series are essentially budget models made to a price point where the different markets deem appropriate, so why do people expect more of them?
$280
is the listed price at Sweetwater, which is not bad for a reasonable well made beginner keyboard with a good range of sounds and features.
That said all the Yamaha E series are essentially budget models made to a price point where the different markets deem appropriate, so why do people expect more of them?
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A high trigger point is unrelated to single-trigger percussion. Actual tonewheel organs had single trigger percussion (i.e. it only triggers when no other keys have been held down). Accurate simulations will duplicate this behavior, whether they have a high trigger point or not. And if a keyboard has a higher trigger point, it will trigger the full organ sound at the trigger point, not just the percussion. The exception could be some high end implementations that introduce delays or multiple contact points to simulate the slight discrepancies between firing the different drawbar components that make up the sound, but that still doesn't mean that percussion gets generated first.
Yeah, I tried that too. It's still black and white chiclets. You only get what you pay for; unfortunately in the modern era, software/firmware is cheap while mechanical structure is not, so you get lots of the first and less of the second. One technical problem is that it's hard to make properly weighted and dynamic action without weight (it's hard to fake key inertia and/or size; also hard to cheat on speaker magnets). I have Yamaha keyboards and pedals as much as 50 years old that still work perfectly: Yamaha makes a lot of good stuff but occasionally slip up.
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I don't think it's a slip up, i.e. I don't think it's not working as designed, it's simply cheap. $280 today would have been like buying a $35 keyboard 50 years ago. But it may still be perfectly reliable.
There are a lot of newbies out there who think that they are getting a significant keyboard upgrade when they buy the next Yamaha model up which cost $100 more that the one they are currently playing.
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+1.
IMHO, it's better to train the lazy (slow) fingers, than to switch keyboards.
Even though you have a synth-action keyboard, a piano teacher might be able to help.
. Charles