Yamaha CP50 hammer action/weighted keys settings
- Thread starter Yakuna
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I bought a P90 to play under headphones during periods of occasional insomnia I suffer from time-to-time. Since that time surgery involving both arms has left them significantly weakened. Now it is difficult to play the P90 more than a minute or so without giving up exhausted.
I did pull the bottom off to see if anything could be done. Anything done may likely not be able to return to original and certainly not be adjustable. Likely the nice smooth action would be destroyed. So the project has been shelved, at least for the near future.
So isn't it interesting that while one poster would like more touch weight, another would like less!
Loren
I did pull the bottom off to see if anything could be done. Anything done may likely not be able to return to original and certainly not be adjustable. Likely the nice smooth action would be destroyed. So the project has been shelved, at least for the near future.
So isn't it interesting that while one poster would like more touch weight, another would like less!
Loren
happyrat1
Destroyer of Eardrums!!!
Actually look in your manual for the Velocity Curve Settings. You can set most keyboards to a lighter or heavier touch with this parameter.
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Happyrat is correct, On many higher end keyboards velocity curves can be configured through a menu setting to get you to "mezza forte" without having to slam the keys, or vice versa where you want to slam the keys hard to get to mezza forte. This adjustment tries to tailor the keyboard to the touch (or hand strength) of the player.
Kurzweil keyboards, in addition to changing the touch response mentioned above, actually allow you to put in a different keybed (swapping say a Fatar TP-8 keybed with a TP-9 keybed) and there is a setting in the master mode under the MAPS page called Key Action MAP that assists the software to work with the new hardware (although they don't highly recommend that you actually do this). Also, they also sell a key spring kit that allows you to swap out the springs on the keybed to convert a TP-8 keybed to respond more like a TP-9 keybed. They are one of the few manufacturers where I've seen these options.
http://syntaur.com/PC3KC.html
Unfortunately I don't believe that Yamaha allows you to physically change or alter the keybed itself, just the touch response. If the keybed feels too sluggish (i.e. returns too slowly) or springs back too quickly there is no work around for that.
Kurzweil keyboards, in addition to changing the touch response mentioned above, actually allow you to put in a different keybed (swapping say a Fatar TP-8 keybed with a TP-9 keybed) and there is a setting in the master mode under the MAPS page called Key Action MAP that assists the software to work with the new hardware (although they don't highly recommend that you actually do this). Also, they also sell a key spring kit that allows you to swap out the springs on the keybed to convert a TP-8 keybed to respond more like a TP-9 keybed. They are one of the few manufacturers where I've seen these options.
http://syntaur.com/PC3KC.html
Unfortunately I don't believe that Yamaha allows you to physically change or alter the keybed itself, just the touch response. If the keybed feels too sluggish (i.e. returns too slowly) or springs back too quickly there is no work around for that.
Thanks for the replies. I was aware of the way to change the velocity curves and did some experimenting with it. However, I'm basically an organ player, so I crawl around the keyboard progressing by finger substitution. The instrument I had available was a Baldwin Spinet OrgaSonic that had two short manuals, 30 something keys each, with no decay or reverb.
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I was aware of the velocity curves and experimented with them. However they are very piano touch oriented, as they should be.
For us old guys who learned on something like the small spinet Baldwin OrgaSonic that I did with short staggered manuals, only one octave of bass pedals, rubbery key action with no sustain, decay or reverb whatsoever, we don't strike the keys. To avoid the annoying, choppy performance most piano players would produce, the focus of the few lessons I was given was to develop and refine the crawling, finger substitutions needed to progress smoothly across the keyboard of such an instrument. That is one reason I have been sought after to play organ for funerals, weddings, church services even though I was an electrical engineer (power and industrial control systems) to earn a living.
For pianos touch has three major components; down weight, up weight and friction – which is often
expressed as the difference between the up-down measured weights. Most pianists are happy when down weight is kept between 48 & 52 grams. This is the weight applied to the key at normal playing position that causes the key to slowly settle and lift the hammer to the strings. My P90 is very even across the keyboard but significantly high at around 56 grams to cause a key to settle and cypher the note.
Another major component of touch is inertia, hence the idea of a “weighted keyboard”. If you are interested in all this, go to the “piano world” forum. This subject has been discussed there several times ad-” infinitum amongst several high-end designers and rebuilders.
Regarding the P90, there is no adjust-ability. Likewise there should be no change over a long rigorous service life. There is a way to reduce up/down weights to decrease “touch” at the expense of adding inertia. Since the keys are largely hollow, standard lead piano key weights could be glued into the keys using something like automotive “trim/weather stripping” cement. Almost every acoustic piano has lead slugs set into each key. I've obtained several “for the hauling” derelicts, both upright and grands, and rendered them for parts. I'm sure there are more than enough lead weights for my P90.
I'll keep you informed should I decide to commit to making this mod.
Loren
PS I inadvertently hit the reply button before finishing the previous post. Sorry!
For us old guys who learned on something like the small spinet Baldwin OrgaSonic that I did with short staggered manuals, only one octave of bass pedals, rubbery key action with no sustain, decay or reverb whatsoever, we don't strike the keys. To avoid the annoying, choppy performance most piano players would produce, the focus of the few lessons I was given was to develop and refine the crawling, finger substitutions needed to progress smoothly across the keyboard of such an instrument. That is one reason I have been sought after to play organ for funerals, weddings, church services even though I was an electrical engineer (power and industrial control systems) to earn a living.
For pianos touch has three major components; down weight, up weight and friction – which is often
expressed as the difference between the up-down measured weights. Most pianists are happy when down weight is kept between 48 & 52 grams. This is the weight applied to the key at normal playing position that causes the key to slowly settle and lift the hammer to the strings. My P90 is very even across the keyboard but significantly high at around 56 grams to cause a key to settle and cypher the note.
Another major component of touch is inertia, hence the idea of a “weighted keyboard”. If you are interested in all this, go to the “piano world” forum. This subject has been discussed there several times ad-” infinitum amongst several high-end designers and rebuilders.
Regarding the P90, there is no adjust-ability. Likewise there should be no change over a long rigorous service life. There is a way to reduce up/down weights to decrease “touch” at the expense of adding inertia. Since the keys are largely hollow, standard lead piano key weights could be glued into the keys using something like automotive “trim/weather stripping” cement. Almost every acoustic piano has lead slugs set into each key. I've obtained several “for the hauling” derelicts, both upright and grands, and rendered them for parts. I'm sure there are more than enough lead weights for my P90.
I'll keep you informed should I decide to commit to making this mod.
Loren
PS I inadvertently hit the reply button before finishing the previous post. Sorry!
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Keyboards generally come in three different actions:
1) Weighted, can be fully weighted or graded hammer action - typically seen on 88 key instruments since this is akin to your typical piano replicate. Also seen on 73/76 key versions.
2) Synth action - typically seen on 25, 37, 49, 61 as well as some 73/76 key instruments. Opposite of weighted, also known as unweighted. Very springy action, very little resistance and quick to return. Used on synthesizer instruments and 61 key workstations. Organ players like this because the action is closer to different types of organs, i.e. easier to play organ on a synth action than it is on a weighted action.
3) Semi-weighted - an 'in-between" action. Not ideal for piano nor synth but flexible enough (some would call it a compromise) so that both types of playing can be done without being annoyed by the action.
All of the actions above vary within the category, i.e. there are different types of weighted actions, some heavier than others, some lighter than others but still considered weighted. Same goes with synth and semi-weighted. Semi-weighted is the one that people seem to complain about most since it is in-between to begin with, some semi-weighted actions feel closer to weighted than unweighted, and vice versa. I happen to use three different keyboards; my main keyboard is semi-weighted and I find it acceptable to play both piano and organ/synth. I also have a synth action which I use solely to trigger organ and I also have a weighted action board that is ideal for piano playing. Companies like Nord and Kurzweil offer a keyboard model in three different actions. My Kurzweil PC3 came in three actions, the PC361 was 61 synth-action keys, the PC3 was 76 semi-weighted action keys and the PC3x was 88 hammer action keys.
Keyboard feel is a subject of endless debate for some people. Not so much for me since I grew up playing piano on an upright that didn't have a real heavy action and I played the church organ which was also light to touch. My mother purchased a grand piano later (which I still have) and I actually hate the action on it as it is very sluggish and heavy to play, making it laborius. The weighted action on my Generalmusic Equinox 88 Pro is very nice (as well as the piano sample). I really enjoy playing it but can move from that to a synth or my semi-weighted Kurzweil PC3 without any difficulty.
1) Weighted, can be fully weighted or graded hammer action - typically seen on 88 key instruments since this is akin to your typical piano replicate. Also seen on 73/76 key versions.
2) Synth action - typically seen on 25, 37, 49, 61 as well as some 73/76 key instruments. Opposite of weighted, also known as unweighted. Very springy action, very little resistance and quick to return. Used on synthesizer instruments and 61 key workstations. Organ players like this because the action is closer to different types of organs, i.e. easier to play organ on a synth action than it is on a weighted action.
3) Semi-weighted - an 'in-between" action. Not ideal for piano nor synth but flexible enough (some would call it a compromise) so that both types of playing can be done without being annoyed by the action.
All of the actions above vary within the category, i.e. there are different types of weighted actions, some heavier than others, some lighter than others but still considered weighted. Same goes with synth and semi-weighted. Semi-weighted is the one that people seem to complain about most since it is in-between to begin with, some semi-weighted actions feel closer to weighted than unweighted, and vice versa. I happen to use three different keyboards; my main keyboard is semi-weighted and I find it acceptable to play both piano and organ/synth. I also have a synth action which I use solely to trigger organ and I also have a weighted action board that is ideal for piano playing. Companies like Nord and Kurzweil offer a keyboard model in three different actions. My Kurzweil PC3 came in three actions, the PC361 was 61 synth-action keys, the PC3 was 76 semi-weighted action keys and the PC3x was 88 hammer action keys.
Keyboard feel is a subject of endless debate for some people. Not so much for me since I grew up playing piano on an upright that didn't have a real heavy action and I played the church organ which was also light to touch. My mother purchased a grand piano later (which I still have) and I actually hate the action on it as it is very sluggish and heavy to play, making it laborius. The weighted action on my Generalmusic Equinox 88 Pro is very nice (as well as the piano sample). I really enjoy playing it but can move from that to a synth or my semi-weighted Kurzweil PC3 without any difficulty.
The Baldwin we still have after the kids left is similar -- heavy, dense hammers, and heavy sluggish action. Much of the sluggishness can be corrected by careful regulation, but to make this a light touch would involve new, light-weight, soft, individually graded hammers.
You normally start installing new hammers. When finished everything looks to be perfect. Then you start the grading process locating the heaviest hammers and thinning the tails but leaving a duck bill at the end for proper checking. This can involve 2-3 weeks full time. When done, things don't look nearly as tidy, perhaps full ugly to most. But the result when playing is phenomenal.
This is only a sketch of the process but also involves key lead and other changes -- really quite a huge, but rewarding undertaking. This is high-end concert grand stuff, likely of not much interest to most keyboard folks.
You normally start installing new hammers. When finished everything looks to be perfect. Then you start the grading process locating the heaviest hammers and thinning the tails but leaving a duck bill at the end for proper checking. This can involve 2-3 weeks full time. When done, things don't look nearly as tidy, perhaps full ugly to most. But the result when playing is phenomenal.
This is only a sketch of the process but also involves key lead and other changes -- really quite a huge, but rewarding undertaking. This is high-end concert grand stuff, likely of not much interest to most keyboard folks.